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Mark this down as the second time I've agreed with this administration...
Published on May 18, 2006 By Zoomba In US Domestic
Yes, shocking though it may be, I agree with the President on his Illegal Immigrant plan. But how could I, a card-carrying democrat, who voted against President Bush in both elections, who supports gay marraige and any number of other fluffy happy-go-lucky liberal agenda items agree with he who is considered the Anti-Christ amongst my more extreme bretheren?

Simple, the plan makes sense and is doable.

Illegals have to go. Simple as that. They need to be shown the door and sent packing. They are starting their life in this country by flaunting the laws that make it so great and desirable to live in. This would be akin to just moving into a newly built house without buying it, but then expecting the rights and protections and benefits of home ownership. But add to that the expectation that their neighbors foot the utility bills and property taxes for them.

We need to restructure our system so that unless you can prove citizenship, you are denied the benefits and rights thereof. No welfare. Only the most basic health care (emergency room, life & death situations). No food stamps. No assisted housing. They have chosen to snub their noses at our system when it inconveniences them, but want to reap the full benefits.

That said, we also need to make the process to become a citizen clearer, and more streamlined. The process has to require work, but it shouldn't be so onerous to do it legally that the illegal option is vastly easier. A worker program accomplishes this better than any alternative we have come up with in a while. It also provides a means for those who are already here illegally, a method to make amends for their past transgressions.

This is the middle ground to a tough issue. On the left, there are calls for an open border, which would be a disaster. On the right there are calls for a wall and to gather up every single illegal and ship them back. Neither of these alternatives are workable or reasonable. They're an extreme reaction to what is rapidly becoming a bad situation. No, the middle choice doesn't fix all the problems, but honestly, I don't think we can "fix" this problem anymore... at least not in any immediate way. What we have to do is reform how our systems work that handle immigration, and how we internally handle illegal immigrants. Take away the free benefits, make the penalties more severe, and place strong penalties on companies that employ illegals.

Immigrants are still very important to our nation despite what many will claim. We were built by immigrants, we are made stronger by the constant stream of new people with new voices and ideas. To cut off this flow completely as some would suggest will cause us to stagnate. We look at nations in Europe who have become so insular they've become out of touch with the rest of the world (i.e. France) but we look to do the same things. A sense of cultural superiority is growing in the US where we look down on the dirty immigrants of today. We need them, but what we don't need are the illegal ones. We need to reform the system to reward the lawful and punish the unlawful. Right now, the whole equation is flipped.

Putting troops on the border to reenforce border patrol is another key step to attempt to stem the flow across the border. It will slow it, but not stop it. We have too large a border for that. And a wall wouldn't be economically feasable and would be just as hard to patrol. No matter how high you build it, people will still get over if they want to.

Troops to stem the flow, a worker program to provide a viable path to citizenship, now all we need is to step up the penalties and deny benefits and services.

We're taking steps in the right direction finally.

Comments (Page 1)
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on May 18, 2006

I think Bush's proposal is a good start, but it is not the final answer.  Can we round up 10-12million and shipt them back?  Probably not.  But those we can identify should be shipped back.  We cannot find every murderer, but that does not mean we allow the ones we can find to go free.

Regardless of a wall, fence, or just more troops, there is no point in passing any legislation to deal with the issue until we stop the flow.  We will not stop it completely, but the fact that thousands cross each day indicate we have a torrent.  We must ratchet it down to a trickle.  And until such time as we can, any legislation dealing with the ones here is stupid and wrong.  It will only encourage more to come.

As for your membership in the democrat party - dont worry - conservatives assimilate them too!  You are being assimilated.

on May 18, 2006
that's how it starts zoom... first a simple common sense agreement with the right, then more, then soon you see the folly of the left, you drift further right, you wake up one day to find a republican registration card in you wallet. heh heh heh
on May 18, 2006
I'm fairly conservative when it comes to economics. Moderate when it comes to foreign policy. And decidedly liberal when it comes to social issues. Well, more libertarian when it comes to those I guess because I mostly just oppose the imposition of one person's morals on another (especially when based on religion). This is pretty much how I've always felt on politics, the only difference between now and then is that my focus is shifting more towards economics and foreign policy. I go all liberal whenever someone starts talking about banning this or that... and in that regard I've been railing against the democrats as much as the republicans lately.
on May 18, 2006
nice article zoomba,,,i wrote a sim. one the other day only to have some zealots try to tell me it is totally feasible and realistic to send 12 million illegal aliens back to their country of origin....nice to see a more civil tone here.

on that note, the comment from Guy is one that makes most people's skin crawl....it is totally pompous. assimilated? puhlease....this is why things are so polarized today,,,this notion that 1 party holds ALL the answers...i am neither democrat nor republican, but it makes me ill when i see a pundit of either side write or speak in this way.

and the immigration issue must be dealt with comprehensively,,,meaning both border security and a plan for those here now. this ploy of seperating them as if we were incapable of dealing with them simotaneously is nonsense. immigrants will continue to flow here as long as there is opportunities to improve one's life or the life of one's family and loved ones. putting a plan in place to deal with the immigrants will not increase any flow. the flow is a river as we speak, and the fact is that it will take years to put a secure border system in, and then it won't stop it, we can only hope to manage it. by putting off any comprehensive plan, we deprive ourselves of much needed resources in the form of tax dollars which are not being paid

unless the plan is comprehensive and deals with all aspects of the immigration issue, not just the hard ass border policies,,,it will be about as effective as the drug war....all bark, no bite.

i know some people want to puff out their chests and be all hard about this,,,but the bottom line is it is not a realistic policy. america is not about kicking everyone's ass...and when we take that posture, we usually end up with egg on our face. remember in high school when a tough guy pushed people around, sooner or later,,,they got theirs back in spades...but the tough guy who was nice to people, respected and defended those weaker than him were always liked, admired and rarely ever had to raise a hand.

i really enjoy debating different viewpoints, but again, please, drop this "now that you "see the light" about this issue, you can be assimilated or whatever to see the light on everything i believe" attitude...it's not necessary and only adds to the polarization.

and as far as drifting to the right goes,,,,i was a republican @ 18,,,held elected office as a republican and over the years, seeing things from the inside (and i still have many family and friends working in the GOP in virtually every branch of govt.) 21 years later, i am neither democrat or republican...my experience taught me, that at least for me, neither party holds all the answers or enough of the answers to earn my paid support. this allows me to comment honestly on the issues, without worrying about how it may effect a party, or an election cycle. it allows me to support good ideas without wondering how my party may be affected. it also allows me to not have to defend the indefensible when it comes to individuals within a party...and conversely not to damn an entire party for a person's misdeeds. but on many issues, i have drifted left, on the side of compassion and tolerance rather than to the right. i typically call myself a progressive,,,i believe in progress.

i believe it's easy to call oneself "conservative" on economic or fiscal issues. unlike with other political issues, when it comes to handling money, conservative implies that one is responsible with money , where liberal (and i have never heard anyone in office call themselves "fiscally liberal") almost implies an irresponsibility with money. kind of a red herring... (almost) everyone considers themselves somewhat "fiscally conservative "

in foreign policy, most issues are neither conservative or liberal...they are usually more nuanced than anything that can be that simply labeled.

conservative and liberal are properly applied when talking about social issues....conservative, to me, usually implies one is more traditional, prudish and have a general fear of any change that allows people more personal choice. liberal on social issues, usually implies much more personal choice freedoms, more of an acceptance to attempt change to expand rights and more of a love or concern with the future more than the past.

but i ramble,,,take care...
on May 18, 2006

on that note, the comment from Guy is one that makes most people's skin crawl....it is totally pompous. assimilated? puhlease....this is why things are so polarized today,,,this notion that 1 party holds ALL the answers...i am neither democrat nor republican, but it makes me ill when i see a pundit of either side write or speak in this way.

Sean, that is an old joke that I have had with Zoomba for almost a year now.  You apparently are not in on it. I would suggest looking at emoticons before taking every statement as fact.

on May 18, 2006
I know how you feel Zoomba. I had the same reaction when i watched his speech the other night.

on May 18, 2006
I just like to make the Old Fart Neocon (Dr. Guy) think that he's converting me to the darkside I've always been taught to do what you can to make your elders happy
on May 18, 2006

I know how you feel Zoomba. I had the same reaction when i watched his speech the other night.

WOW!  2 converts!

But one of the slams against his speech being played out in the Mainstream Media was that it fell on its face.  While the 2 of you are not any kind of scientific measurement, it is anecdotal evidence that the speech was more for the center, than for the right.

on May 18, 2006
sorry if i overstepped Guy....if it is an inside joke,,,egg on my face and my apologies. my problem, however, with statements like that, where they are usually said in a joking manner,,,it is usually not so much of a joke. i know more than enough pundits for different perspectives who have it in their head that everyone else is stupid and need to be educated and "assimilated" and "shown the light."

and where i too have some pretty strong ideas and beliefs on certain issues,,,i pide myself in being willing to truly look at issues with an open mind before getting to that idea or belief...and also having some flexibility as new evidence comes to light. and finally, as you see at the beginning of this post, never be above apologizing and being a little humble when called for.
on May 18, 2006
sorry if i overstepped Guy....if it is an inside joke,,,egg on my face and my apologies. my problem, however, with statements like that, where they are usually said in a joking manner,,,it is usually not so much of a joke. i know more than enough pundits for different perspectives who have it in their head that everyone else is stupid and need to be educated and "assimilated" and "shown the light."

and where i too have some pretty strong ideas and beliefs on certain issues,,,i pide myself in being willing to truly look at issues with an open mind before getting to that idea or belief...and also having some flexibility as new evidence comes to light. and finally, as you see at the beginning of this post, never be above apologizing and being a little humble when called for.
on May 18, 2006

Reply By: Sean Conners, a.k.a. SConn1Posted: Thursday, May 18, 2006
sorry if i overstepped Guy....

No need to appologize twice!   But Zoomba is a young whipper snapper, and as he said, I am a old fart neo-con! Each a caricture of who we really are.  i.e. Agreeing more than not, even tho we put ourselves on the opposite sides of the middle.

on May 18, 2006

How about the illegals tell us who employed them before they can become citizens or who forged there papers ?

This is one thing no one talks about.
What about the companies who employ these 10 million ? 20million illegal aliens.
The companies at least need to pay all the back social security/taxes etc.
How about a nice big fine as well so help clean up the mess.

on May 19, 2006
How about the illegals tell us who employed them before they can become citizens or who forged there papers ?


Now "there's" a helluva idea!
on May 19, 2006
going after the employers for unpaid taxes is one of the cornerstones of my immigration plan which i outlined on my blog...do we really expect these poor immigrants doing menial labor jobs to come up with this money? the only realistic way to collect will be from the employers who have reaped extra profits by not paying taxes on their employees.
on May 19, 2006
going after the employers for unpaid taxes is one of the cornerstones of my immigration plan which i outlined on my blog...do we really expect these poor immigrants doing menial labor jobs to come up with this money? the only realistic way to collect will be from the employers who have reaped extra profits by not paying taxes on their employees.
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