From technology to politics to video games; these are the random thoughts of a geek with too much time on his hands
Should we stand by what we write?
Published on June 17, 2005 By Zoomba In Blogging
Today, Scott Kurtz, the author of PvP Online a very popular and successful webcomic posted a blog entry below the latest cartoon regarding the Ethics of Depublishing.

A blurb from his article:


"Depublishing is the practice of posting something to the web, often an inflammatory post to a weblog, then removing the inflammatory parts or deleting the content altogether. "... " People would frequently discover entries they linked to or commented on had suddenly disappeared, or been substantially edited, making their own blog entries nonsensical...

Depublishing is alleged to be unethical, as it allows people to squirm their way out of the consequences of their actions. "If you frequently find yourself wanting to depublish content, you should spend more time reflecting on what you've written before putting it online."


Good advice, but don't be too quick to discourage depublishing...for it is the greatest aspect of publishing to the web.

Nothing sucks more than opening up a box of newly printed books that just arrived at your house, only to find that you missed a mistake. Now it's cemented in time, for everyone to see. Forever.



He goes on to discuss the advantages of going back and editing your work for typos and basic errors. He also mentions that sometimes you make a drunken entry about how you think anyone who owns a duck as a pet is a retard... the ones you regret deeply the next morning. I thought he was missing the point of the ethical argument of depublishing, focusing on the niggling details and ignoring the larger problem. I decided to do something I rarely do... I wrote an email in response to what someone posted on their website. Here's my email to him, typos and all...



Mr. Kurtz,

Just thought I'd add to what is likely to be the flood of emails responding to you "Depublishing" post on June 17th.

The issue of depublishing isn't with people going back and correcting typos or fixing glaring errors. The problem comes in when someone goes back and either completely deletes a post that generated undesired feedback (i.e. flames... or in many cases simple disagreement) or alters it so significantly that the original point being made changes completely. This isn't such a problem if it happens once in a great while, as sometimes what you write gets misinterpreted and you may want to go back to clarify and reword your point. It becomes a problem when someone does it regularly to any comment or article they write that is attacked/disagreed with/proven wrong. I've seen many blog writers, especially when it comes to the topic of politics, who delete articles as soon as they feel they've lost the argument in the attached comments section, or via email.

The practice of the newspaper retraction is something that probably should survive in the Internet world. It is an admission of being wrong, but it leaves the proof for people to see. Deleting something completely removes any evidence that it existed at all. A good number of people delete articles and then later on try and play the card "Oh yeah, when have I ever said anything like XYZ?? Can you find it?! No... well then you must be wrong."

When someone writes online, especially to an established audience, their credibility is a key part of what they write. A habit of deleting "bad" posts hurts credibility with the readership. It hurts the ability to weigh in on topics with others on the same topic/in the same field. Deleting what you write sends the message that you stand by your views and convictions until it proves unpopular, or until you're proven wrong.

Fixing typos or wording mistakes isn't depublishing. It's not substantially editing the message of the piece, nor is it removing it from public view. Yeah, the web is great as a fluid medium that gives you the opportunity to expand and improve upon what you've previously done. Deleting posts however is another issue. This is where the ethics come in (as much as ethics exist in this Brave New World). Yes, sometimes people make the drunken "Duck" post and regret it in the morning. Well, put a bit of text at the top saying "Sorry guys, I was wasted when I wrote that" or something similar to explain what happened and then move on.

The biggest difference between print and the 'net is that there is no delay for us online. No intermediate editors to save us from our own stupidity. This affords us a greater deal of freedom to express ourselves and to try out new things. The consequence of that freedom is a greater responsibility to be careful about what we do online.

The blurb you quoted was right on the money when it said "If you frequently find yourself wanting to depublish content, you should spend more time reflecting on what you've written before putting it online." I don't really know how much you "depublish" since I don't hunt through blog archives on your site, and honestly it doesn't make a lick of difference to me. I find your angry flame posts to be incredibly entertaining (as well as the usual backlash to them), I enjoy your rants and raves. I think depublishing, for you, would diminish part of your public persona.

Stand by your flaming rants, your angry posts, your hatred towards duck owners... It makes you much more interesting and it adds flavor to your site.

A Loyal PvP Reader
-Mike



I think the biggest point I wanted to make was that while The Internet gives us new opportunities to express ourselves, new ways to reach increasingly larger audiences and allows us to do things that were never before possible with the picture or the written word. The Internet is a new sort of freedom, one that crosses borders, parties, policies and beliefs. It's a great thing to have... but like was said by Uncle Ben in Spiderman "With great power, comes great responsibility." That's what we have here. We have this newfound freedom, but the price of that freedom is the responsibility to not abuse it, to take the extra step to ensure we're doing the right thing.

Deleting articles because you lost the argument, or because you regret it days or weeks later for whatever reason represents a sort of intellectual dishonesty. It also hurts your ability to argue a point since it shows that you don't stand by what you write if it proves unpopular. We've seen many here do it many times over. They write something inflamatory, everyone goes nuts and jumps all over them, then they delete it. Often it's these people who later say "Oh yeah, have I EVER said anything like XYZ before? Can you find it in ANY of my articles? No? Well, then you're just full of it!" Of course they won't find the previous example if you deleted it.

Stand by what you write, even if it's unpopular, and you gain more in integrity and honesty than you lose in popularity.

And if you find yourself deleting articles quite often, you really should be thinking about whether or not you should be writing and publishing in the first place. We don't accept such dishonesty from public officials, news pundits, or celebrities... what makes you so special that we should allow you to do it?"

Comments
on Jun 17, 2005

Damn!  I am glad I get to play Zoomba!

I dont delete.  I have hidden some for 2 reasons.  One is my children.  I dont want them to discover them (and my youngest son has now discovered the site, so I hid the ones about his mother).

And 2 is I duplicated someone else, so I commented on their post and then hid it.

Boy, I cant wait for the stage play!  It will be fun!

on Jun 17, 2005
The way I see it, the Internet is like the Id: a surging froth of ideas and emotions, most of which are too extreme, too violent, or too stupid to survive for any length of time. They bubble up, get ridiculed mercilessly by the Ten Thousand Voices of the Internet, pop, and subside again into the froth.

The Internet is a place for people to try out extreme behaviors--things they wouldn't try in person, arguments they'd never use in real life, where their speech or writing would be a permanent record and reference to their ideas. Copy-editing isn't what makes depublishing so valuable. It's the ability to float some truly disgusting trial balloon of an idea, and then take it away again before anyone can hold you accountable for it.

If you're going to the Internet for your meaningful debate, you're going to be frustrated at every turn. Especially if you're looking to find someone saying something evil, and to hold them accountable for it. The Internet isn't the place for that. Sure, you get to argue with someone else's Id, but the Id isn't where the good arguments are developed, presented, and adopted.

The Internet may give you some insight into how other people think and feel, but of facilities like anonymity and depublishing, the Internet is not a place where you get to hold people accountable for their thoughts and feelings. That's what real-life interactions are for. If you (or Kurtz) are unhappy with depublishing, turn off the computer, push away from the desk, go outside, and find a real live human being to talk to. Maybe you can discuss the weather, or something.
on Jun 17, 2005
Ouch. My last comment ended on a pretty harsh note.

I'm very sorry about that. I did not mean it that way.

Honestly, I think a conversation about the weather--especially the nice weather I'm getting right now--would be kind of nice. And there's always the opportunity built right in to bring up some aspect of global warming, see what the other person thinks, maybe talk about that for a litlte bit.

So yeah, I think "depublishing" is great, but only because I think the Internet is mostly an Id-place. Don't let the goblins get you down with their shenanigans, Zoomba. Just take it all as part of the game
on Jun 17, 2005
Oh, this wasn't one of those "Im angry because someone deleted an article" posts... It was actually just a response I had to someone else's take on the whole issue.

Yeah, the net can be used as just a surging froth of thoughts and emotions, and for most people it is. The issue of depublishing is completely irrelevant for them. It's the people who want to be taken seriously, the ones who try and debate (especially here) and prove points that this is directed at.

A lot of people keep yelling about how Blogging is going to replace the mainstream media, how it's the next great hope of information exchange. Well, there's no way in hell that's ever going to happen if the depublishing issue isn't addressed. For all the lack of ethics in mainstream media, they still at least are forced to stand by what they've said and published. It never goes away. Here on the Internet, you can claim to be some informed news source, post an expose on whatever issue and play at being a journalist or reporter, but run and delete at the first sign of opposition. "Hey, I never said that!"

I don't care if the High School drama queens of LiveJournal delete their angsty "Bobby Sue doesn't want to go to the Jr. Prom with me!" stuff. They're not trying to do anything other than write an online diary. It's the people who try and write actual articles, who want to make statements and be taken seriously that need to think about the ethics behind what they're doing. That is who I target this at. That's why I posted it on this site. Sure we have our angsty "I'm too ugly to EVER find a date! My life is over at 17!" posts and such, but for the most part people are trying to make a point here, trying to argue something.
on Jun 17, 2005
Reinvention can often be a noble goal... But it only tends to work if you've only written a little bit. Your blog only had 3 articles, all of which you wrote after your girlfriend dumped you? They don't actually represent who you are or what you really think? GO ahead and reinvent yourself.

That doesn't work as well when you've established yourself somewhere. People don't need to have a long memory really. We had people like Aeryck who deleted their articles every third day practically. In the case of Myrr, I don't know what he is trying to accomplish, because his new articles are as inflamatory as his old ones.

Like I said, depublishing has no real impact on most people... But if you want to be taken seriously, if you want to actually argue/debate issues, if you think you can convince anyone of anything, depublishing ruins you. It shoots your credibility.

Depublishing is the reason blogging (or any Internet-only news organization) will never replace tradiditonal publishing mediums.
on Jun 17, 2005

Reinvention can often be a noble goal... But it only tends to work if you've only written a little bit. Your blog only had 3 articles, all of which you wrote after your girlfriend dumped you? They don't actually represent who you are or what you really think? GO ahead and reinvent yourself.

You see that is why I don't delete.  Oh sure, I have had some boners.  But they are my progression.  So I keep them all.  I explained why I hide some (I think i have done that with 3 so far), but I want to see how I have come from point A to point B.  And many are that (most are just for fun and nose tweaking).

Blogging will never be a replacement for what use to pass for the MSM.  It was never meant to be.  It is a check on the unrestricted power of them tho, as demonstrated by both Drudge and memogate.

We will never report the news (although I am proud to announce I did scoop Drudge once), but it will force them to be honest.  Or risk the worst punishment for a news outlet ever devised.

Calling them a liar.

on Jun 17, 2005
It always amuses me to think that a system that has no checks for honestly, accuracy, or ethics can be used as a check/balance for those very things for the MSM
on Jun 17, 2005

It always amuses me to think that a system that has no checks for honestly, accuracy, or ethics can be used as a check/balance for those very things for the MSM

Life is stranger than fiction!  You will learn that the next time you turn 23.

BTW, should I wear a plaid shirt or solid?  I kind of like the plaid.

on Jun 17, 2005
If you're playing me in the movie? Solid shirt, slacks and leather shoes... Oh, and you'll need glasses... do you wear glasses?
on Jun 17, 2005

If you're playing me in the movie? Solid shirt, slacks and leather shoes... Oh, and you'll need glasses... do you wear glasses?

Sorry, I got lasik a year ago!  Wore them since I was 6.  Just reading glasses now.

Ok, I will get some leather shoes to play the part.  I hate shoes!

on Jun 20, 2005
Great Article Zoomba!

I'm ParaTed2k, and I'm a Depublisher. ;~D

Anyone who reads me knows that there are a few things that will make me jump for the delete button with the gusto I used to have jump out of airplanes (and hopefully will again someday). Swearing in a comment in my blog is one of them. Disagree with me has never been one.

I also have deleted many of my articles. Not out of fear that someone will use my words against, but because the ones I delete were never meant to stay around long. "articles" like my "Sally Struthers/Michael Jackson" joke don't stay on my blog long because, well, their just jokes. Others I've given the acts because they were meant for the day or the week I posted them. My "Dad's Day" poem being an example of that.

Most of all though, my Blog is mine to do with as I wish. If I want to delete the whole thing, or just the articles that don't satire Personal Tragedy, Disaster, War & Other Things that Just Plain Suck, that's my choice to make. What others may or may not think of me for doing it is their choice to make.
on Jun 20, 2005
Ted -
The depublishing thing doesn't really apply to the casual blogger who posts for fun. It's directed at the person who wants to make a point, who is trying to convince others of something, or trying to present news or facts. Basically, anything that requires some established credibility. It's also directed at those (like webcomic artists, online journalists etc) who make their living based on the written word and their presentation online. For them, their name is their brand and they don't realize the hit they take when they pull something childish, or simply inflamatory and then try to delete it as a way of making like it never existed.

Depublishing is a weird thing to see happen so much in light of how everyone wants to treat blogs now as the new news medium.